Hamadoun Toure Speech ICANN Meeting - Cairo Thursday, 6 November 2008 >> Would all of our board members please take their positions on stage. We're about to begin our program with the honored guests. Once again, would the ICANN board members kindly take their positions on stage so we can begin our program. Again, would we please have all of the ICANN board members take their places on the stage, please. We'll be starting our program very shortly. >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming back on time. It gives me great pleasure now to introduce an historic event and the life of ICANN, an address to the public forum by the Secretary-General of the ITU. Since his election in January of 2007, Hamadoun Toure has announced his intention to improve relations with ICANN. Since my election in November of -- (no audio) -- also announced my intention of improving relations with the ITU. We have met on three previous occasions, including the honor bestowed of me of a reception and visit to his offices in Geneva in July, the first by an ICANN chairman. So it gives me great pleasure to welcome Hamadoun, the first visit by a Secretary-General of the ITU to ICANN. Dr. Toure has a master's degree in electrical engineering from the Technical Institute of Electronics and Telecommunications of Leningrad and a Doctor of Philosophy degree from the University of Electronics Telecommunications and Informatics of Moscow. He's spearheaded the World Summit on the Information Society in achieving the millennial development goals and is a director of the BDT from 1999 until 2006. He played a significant role in the WSIS process, launching numerous projects based on partnership-building with international organizations, governments, civil society, and the private sector. So it gives me great pleasure to invite Dr. Toure to address us. Hamadoun. [ Applause ] >>SECRETARY-GENERAL TOURE: Thank you, Peter. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Assistant secretary, and my dear friend, Paul, dear colleagues. I see many familiar faces from the ITU family here, and many who have been very active during the World Summit on the Information Society process, the WSIS, that was an ITU initiative that took place in 2005 -- 2003 and 2005 in Geneva and Tunis. And I am really delighted to be here. I intended to make this participation a long time ago. Last year, we didn't make it at your meeting in Portugal. There were some flight problems, so I couldn't make it. But since my election in November 2006 and my taking office on the 1st of January 2007, so for the past 24 months, I have been trying to advocate the necessity for ITU and ICANN to work hand in hand. And our constituencies from both sides have been unnecessarily criticizing each other or attacking each other. And I think there is a need to put an end to it so that we really serve better the constituencies that we are advocating, so we serve better the cause that we are all working for, which is development of ICT in the world. At the top, I believe myself, Peter, and Paul, we are in tune in terms of the direction of where we are going, and maybe the information has not been circulated well enough at all levels so to have a clear understanding of the need of the complementarity that is characterizing our two organizations. That doesn't preclude us from debating on issues and disagree on some issues. From friction comes light. And I believe that when we do, that we can really have a clear understanding of -- and when we know each other better, I think we can learn to love each other better and make best advantage, take the best advantage of our capabilities. The ITU is the oldest organization of the United Nations family. And I use that word because we are very proud of that. It's not a dinosaur that some people characterize it. It is 143 years old, long before United Nations. We are very proud of the culture of cooperation that has been put in this organization, since 1865, since the creation of the telegraph. And we are very proud of the way the organization has been able to adapt itself over the years and decades and centuries, from telegraph to telephone to teletypewriters, to radio and television. We are talking about digital broadcasting now. And very soon, 3D televisions. We are talking about emergence of technologies. When I see someone using one of these devices (indicating), I wonder what it is. Is it a phone? Is it a computer? Is it a play station? Or is it a clock? Or an alarm clock? Or a diary? Or just a calendar? The convergence has shown us that we have all devices all in one, but we are always on and on the move. ITU's primary work was to set standards for telecommunications, but also to manage spectrum, global spectrum. And whatever we do has something to do with things that other people are doing as well. They are interlinked. We need to work together. During the WSIS process, there were long debates, many debates, on Internet governance. Many debates. And my point to many people from developing countries who were fighting for Internet governance, I was telling them, before you get the governance, get the Internet first. And we need to make sure that we are having -- making the ICT at the disposal of everyone, keeping in mind the Millennium Development Goals. 2015 is just around the corner. And we know that no other sector of the economy or life will meet their Millennium Development Goals by 2015 if they don't have ICT at their disposal by 2012, actually. ehealth, eeducation, eagriculture, egovernment, e-Business. We know that they need that tool in order to survive. ICANN has done -- it is just ten years old. It's done a great job. Internet have changed the way of life and will continue to do so. So I believe that there are many common things that we need to work on. ITU has also one very specific characteristic. It has 191 member states and 700 private companies, nongovernment organizations, and civil society that are members of the union. And not many people know that. It is the most inclusive organization of the United Nations family. That's why we had a very successful World Summit on the Information Society. For the first time, a U.N. body was organizing a WSIS, a summit, where you didn't have demonstrations outside. You all remember WTO meetings and other world summits by the U.N. Civil society is fighting with police outside of the buildings. Why should I fight during the WSIS if they were having the opportunity to come inside the room? It was the first time we ever -- we really had that summit, the first summit of ITU, that ITU has organized. But it was the most inclusive summit ever. And that's why we came with the results that we have. Issues that are at stake are very high, very high issues. The access, the security on the service base are very important issues. Our children's future is at stake. Our governments and businesses. The governance of Internet itself is a real serious issue that we need to discuss, and discuss it openly, so that we can find common solutions, avoid unnecessary duplications. I mean, ITU has played a central role in the deployment of the Internet and the promotion of many benefits of it worldwide. Every time a Web browser establishes a secure connection to a server, ITU's work on PKIs, public key infrastructures, and encryption keys, is used. Our pioneering work on electronic authentication enabled jurisdictions around the world to recognize e-mail as legal documents and to give legal studies to electronic signatures. ITU-T developed global standards defining the various flavors of XDX DSL, which now provide broadband Internet access to millions of people worldwide. ITU continues to carry out vital work on next-generation networks and broadband wireless access, international fixed and mobile services, global broadband Internet access by satellite, and new radio interface standards, which are particularly important for the deployment of Internet infrastructure and services in developing countries. Last year's World Radio Conference in Geneva, WRCO 7, took a number of landmark decisions for mobile Internet, including the inclusion of WiMAX within the IMT family of mobile wireless technologies, and specifically allocating the proper spectrum for services like WiMAX to enable wide-range usages, and low spectrum are located at the lowest band so that you can have, really, access in rural areas with minimal equipment. I personally was involved in those -- I'm originally an engineer, so I'm personally involved in those negotiations, very difficult ones. The WRC O 7 was the largest conference in terms of size. But in terms of also number of reallocations of spectrum. Since 1947, we never had such large reallocation of spectrum, given the new services and application that have come into service that needed allocation, that needed room. And we knew that the private sector was out there, expecting ITU -- had the ITU failed at WRCO 7 to give the proper allocations to everyone, private sector would have said, that's it, we're going to go find another place to operate. ITU is useless. That's not been the case. And it was a great challenge for me. It was my first World Radio Conference that I was organizing as Secretary-General, was the highest number of allocations. But we know in our culture in ITU, the only difference between our sector members, the 700 private sector companies, the Ciscos, the AT&Ts, the Verizons, the -- I mean, Microsoft, all of the companies in ICT are evolving in the union. But the only difference between them and the member states is when it comes to voting. And we have one fundamental culture that is very, very dear to us, is that we avoid to vote on substantial issues. My challenge was to get everyone to agree in WRCO 7 on the new spectrum allocation without having to vote. And we did it. And you may wonder, how can 191 member states agree without voting? In our culture, voting means winners and losers. And you cannot afford that in spectrum allocation or in standard-setting. Everyone can be a winner. And that's what we strive to do in the ITU. And we have succeeded in doing so. Well, some of our pioneering works in global standards, such as in multimedia technologies, are -- have been -- have received very -- have received global recognition. The ITU received an Emmy Award earlier this year, together, with our sister organizations, ISO and IEC, for the joint development of an advanced video coding standard, what we call in our jargon the H 264, which is called MPEG-4, that extends the reach of high-quality video from mobile telephones right through the high-definition television. As technological convergence poses new policy challenges, ITU is also working with partners, including the World Banks' program on national and regulatory bodies, to address I.P.-related regulatory issues. In the public-policy arena, ITU has a nonvoting seat on the ICANN board, as a member of the Technical Liaison Group, which we share on a rotational basis with ETSI and W3C. And we participate as an observer in the ICANN Governmental Advisory Committee, the GAC. I hope to come back to that, because you have some weaknesses in the system as well that we need to talk about. I hope we do talk about those very frankly and see why sometimes ITU is doing some of the things that it is doing for which they are being criticized may be because you are not doing it enough. We will talk about those later, I hope later in the afternoon, when I'm addressing the board, we'll talk about those things. We just have to learn to know each other better so that we can like each other and work together. And the main reason why I'm here is that my motto is, the best way to win a war is to avoid it in the first place. And the conventional wars have shown us that there is no winner in any war. Of course, only our -- are winners, unfortunately, and there's no such thing as a superpower in any war, especially in this field, where the only difference between people, between countries, continents, is the difference in the power of their brains. And this is one natural resource that is equally distributed everywhere. No nation, country, continent, or race has a monopoly or has less than others. The most virulent cyber attack that we have seen so far, which was the Iloveyou bug, was developed by someone from an e-mail address in the Philippines, with less than $1,000 laptop. A cyber war will be a disaster for all of us, more than a tsunami. But anyone, any single person out of the 6.5 billion people on this planet, is a superpower in that, because his brain has equal power than anyone else. Then we need to work together. Coming back to what we do with ICANN, we also participate actively in the work of Internet Governance Forum, which was established as the result of the multistakeholder deliberations at the World Summit on the Information Society. We go around, the IGF -- I personally believe that the IGF is just going around and around, avoiding the topics, and becomes sometimes a waste of time. We need to address issues frankly and try to solve them. And that's why I thought I should be here to talk to you here, so that we learn to know each other better. Next year, ITU will organize the World Policy Forum, which addresses a number of Internet-related public-policy issues, ranging from cybersecurity and data protection to multilingualism and the ongoing development of Internet. I hope you will not tell me here, "Don't talk about Internet." It's an issue for everyone. Of course, ITU is not doing any operational issues. I don't have the capability of operational issues. But the public-policy issues are within the ITU, because we do have member states and private sector companies that are involved in it whose life, whose work is related to Internet. They are related, so we need to talk about it. And you shouldn't see us as an enemy as a result. And I always said, and I said it at my election, that I have enough on my plate in ITU not to add more. But those issues are related. If you want an Internet connection for a business, for a house, they will ask you first, the ISP will ask you if you have a telephone line. That's the first prerequisite, to have Internet access, to work together. During the debates of the WSIS, when people were talking about Internet governance, I was telling them, "Get Internet first before you talk about getting the governance of it." But I was comparing -- I was giving simple example, comparing Internet and telecommunications to trucks or cars and highways. It's not because you own the highways that you're going to own all the trucks or cars running on them, and certainly not the goods that they are transporting, or vice versa. It's a simple analogy. I was talking to ministers from developing countries, explaining to them, those who are not engineers like me. But in order to run your traffic smoothly, you need to know when you are building your roads, you need to know the weight, the height, and the speed of the trucks so that you build the bridges accordingly. Otherwise, the system will not flow. And for me, that's the relationship between the Internet and the telecommunication world. And they are condemned to work together. It's a condemned marriage. So better enjoy it. If you are -- or if you know that you're not going to get divorced in any case, because you're condemned to live together, you better find a way to enjoy each other, and have kids in the process. It has been alleged in some corners of the ITU that ITU wishes to govern the Internet. And I have specifically said that I categorically deny that, and I say today again to you, it is not the case. My intention as Secretary-General of ITU is not to govern the Internet, but we need to work together, because there are developing countries that are in need of access. At the end of this year, we'll have four billion mobile telephones in the world. While we organized the World Summit on the Information Society to try and bridge the gap in telephony, we have to ensure that no new gap is created in Internet and no new gap is created in broadband for us to help other sectors to meet the Millennium Development Goals. Therefore, there is a need for these two societies to work together. Almost half of the people in this room are very active participants in the ITU. And, therefore, I think there is room for us to know each other and to understand. ITU's role as a multilateral forum for debate is to serve as a source of impartial expert information and guidance, just as we have done for nearly 145 years. We strive to help all parties work together to clarify the issues and build consensus on the most effective ways of promoting the evolution and uptake of this powerful resource. And we have that capability. We are proud of that culture where, as I mentioned to you, WRCO 7, we did the meeting in one month, allocating all the spectrums. It's the only organization where you will have countries that are at war on other fronts, are supporting each other, common resolutions, with common resolutions, without the people supporting those resolutions being fired. I'm proud to say that we are the only organization where you have Iran supporting his friends, I quote, of the United States, or vice versa and the people who have supported that are still alive. It happens on a daily basis. We never had any Palestinian/Israeli crisis inside the ITU. They share spectrums. So we are in a position to work with everyone, because we have a technical approach to issues. Of course, we don't deal with content. And that's our major asset. Content can be very controversial and political, and necessarily. And we understand that. The resolutions taken at the World Summit on the Information Society mandate ITU to play a key role in facilitating international technical collaboration on I.P.-based networks. And I know some people in this room are unhappy about that. I'm ready to talk about it, why we're doing that and what we're doing in there, why it's complementary to the work you are doing. If I'm convinced that this is not, I will lay it down. I would like to discuss that. They also charge us with facilitating on key issues of interest to our members, such as IDN and the global management resources, but not at operational level. And that's fair. Concerning internationalized domain names, IDN, there is a widespread recognition that although the vast majority of Internet users are no longer native English speakers, certain elements of the Internet, such as the domain name systems, remain English-centric. And this creates barriers to access, as well as raising challenges in areas such as intellectual property and dispute resolutions. ITU is actively collaborating with a range of international partners, including ICANN, to resolve these issues. ITU and UNESCO are also working together to develop universal standards to promote a multilingual information society, including an internationalized country code top-level reference table. And we need to work together. In the area of domain name management, ITU continues to actively participate in ongoing development through our partnership with international bodies, again, such as ICANN. And we look forward to continued fruitful and fruitful collaboration with you and with other stakeholders. ITU is also actively encouraging the industry-wide move to IPv6. Again, looking on the Web all of last week, I've seen numerous attacks on the ITU for having pronounced the world IPv6. This is a concern for all of us. Every phone number has -- every mobile phone will have an I.P. address, every fridge, every car, you know. It's inevitable thing. They will talk to each other. They will talk to each other full length. And, therefore, the technical issues implication of IPv6 on the systems needs to be studied. Our members need to be informed about those things. And we are doing that. And the resolution from the WTSA last week, taken by our 191 member states and 700 companies, private companies, is to study and encourage the implementation of IPv6. I believe this is a concern for all of us. So before even reading the resolution, some people were shooting. And I think -- and that's where we have a problem. We need to see how we can collaborate in exchange of information better in order to know where -- what we are doing and why we are doing it so that it be complementary. And I think, from that kind of works, we can really create a new type of relationship. Ladies and gentlemen, as many of you already know, ITU has recently also spearheaded a new initiative to combat the growing menace of cybercrime and cyberterrorism. The Global Cybersecurity Agenda, GCA, that I put in place last year, was to harmonize, have a harmonized global framework that draws on the best existing national and regional initiatives, to create an effective international approach to combat cyber threats. ITU is well placed to coordinate an international framework, promoting cybersecurity, as the only U.N. agency to blend a mix of public and private sectors, ITU boasts a long and successful history for forging private sector consensus on the management of globally shared ICT resources like satellite orbits and radio spectrum. In 2005, WSIS, the World Summit on the Information Society, mandated ITU to take a lead role in building confidence, I quote, "and security in the use of ICTs." I put in place a high-level expert group last year to study the issue and report to council, with the final delivery of the final report this year. We are gaining a momentum as we move steadily towards agreements on an international set of principles and best practices, best-practice approaches that countries around the world can follow to promote cybersecurity. No one country can be an island in itself, especially not in the cyber world, where anyone can attack any country from anyplace. We had the case of Estonia last year. Estonian network was down for two days. For a country like Estonia, where Skype was born, they are very well prepared against any cyber attack. As you all know, Skype is one of the most flexible systems in terms of avoiding attacks. And during the uprising between Georgia and Russia, we have noticed a large number of botnets or cyber attacks between the two countries. That is scary. And I know some countries have botnets that are prepared, that are not -- they are not even testing, simply because they don't know how to counter it, against themselves. You see how relying we are on the cyberspace and what will be the consequence of a cyber war. The Global Cybersecurity Agenda that I put in place has attracted world leaders as patrons, including Nobel Prize winner, President Oscar Arias from Costa Rica, and from Burkina Faso president, Blaise Compaore. The GCA has gotten strong support from many ITU member states, such as the African Union, and the Malaysian government has offered to make available the infrastructure of the multilateral partnership against cyberterrorism or impact as a global early warning system for the dissemination of global cyber threats information to help countries respond to cyber attacks. And, of course, we need to put in place capacity-building system where every country is ready. If one single country is not well prepared against cybercrime, they could harbor terrorists that will attack other countries. Therefore, we need to have a level of preparedness at the same level everywhere, in every country in the world. Finally, because children are vulnerable and not fully aware of the dangers of online predators and criminals, ITU launched the Child Online Protection initiative, or COP, last week. This international network will provide joint action for the online protection of children through education and awareness raising on safety and the development of use of appropriate technologies. Our children, who spend most of their time in cyberspace, are not taught the basic behaviors in the cyberspace. When they go out in the street, we tell them, "Be careful. Don't talk to strangers, don't accept candy from someone you don't know. It could be a drug that could kill you." But they're out there in cyberspace without telling them what to do or how to behave. And there are predators there, unfortunately. The world is not a perfect one, and we need to be sure that we defend our future, which is our children. Distinguished colleagues, it goes without saying that the Internet is vitally important in our ability to communicate, our ability to access information, and our ability to sustain long-term economic growth. But alongside the out's mandate to promote technical and public-policy development, we have an equally important mandate to promote equitable access to ICTs. For the moment, the Internet remains largely a first-world luxury. We need to change that and change that fast. I was very pleased to address the AfrICANN group today, AfrICANN, with double "N." And I was very pleased to see the level of preparedness. At least the young leaders we see here are prepared and equipped to lead their countries very soon in this field. And this is very encouraging. I have seen the same level of preparedness in many countries in the developing world, in China, India, and other countries. And, therefore, there is hope. The potential of the Internet to accelerate social and economic development in the world's poorest regions is perhaps its greatest asset. I hope you will support ITU in our ongoing effort to see that everyone everywhere has a chance to benefit from that potential for the betterment of our planet, and for humankind, for all humankind. Last, but not least, I should just tell you that another important issue that the ITU is working on today is the trace-back issue, which is also controversial. And we hope to discuss it with anyone who has a problem with trace-back issues. We will never counter terrorism if we don't have a harmonized way of tracing back the I.P. address. Not having to take individual privacy, private information, but you have to track them down. And I don't know one country in the world where they have Internet where they are not doing that, to be frank here. The problem, we are not doing it in a harmonized manner or a coordinated manner. And, unfortunately, the criminals are very, very well organized. And they are working now, as we are talking. And we need to tackle them. Our future depends on that, how we work together. Therefore, some people see that as a human right issue or a privacy issue. Let's talk about it and see where we are. And some say ITU is doing this behind closed doors. As I said, we have 191 member states and 700 private companies working with us in setting standards. We are working together. And the door is open any company can join as a sector member of ITU and the application form is a very simple one. It's just one page. Just a few lines to fill out. So, therefore, we are ready to accept anyone. I believe in the power of Internet. I believe in the value of ICANN. And I was just telling someone a joke when I was coming here, when I mentioned ICANN, someone who didn't know ICANN -- and believe me, there are many people who do not know ICANN. I was amazed by that, amazed by the fact that many people don't know the ITU, either, even though we are 143 years. We are working on that. They were telling me, "That an Obama thing?" I said, why? Oh, because Obama's motto is "we can." And I said, yes, we're going to transform ICANN into "we can." Thank you very much. [ Applause ] >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: Thank you, Hamadoun, for that very thoughtful address. I want to pick up on one or two things you said. I particularly noted you said we are all working for ICT serving our communities, and of course our separate communities. But as you noted, we have this set of interfaces between our communities. And it's about the cooperation at the interfaces that is, of course, the goal. And the other goal, as you said, is that we need to learn to know each other better. So thank you for coming today and helping us, me particularly, learn more about the ITU. I noted also you mentioned the inclusiveness of the WSIS, and of course we claim some influence there, and we have been delighted with the adoption there and elsewhere of the multistakeholder model pioneered by the people in front of you. And I also noted the references to telephony and radio frequency standards, and of course they are the essential works on which ICT relies. So thank you for coming today to address us. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Toure has agreed to answer one or two questions. We have a couple of moments for that before we introduce the next speaker. I see one here and one at the back. Can you follow the usual rules of our public forum which is that you stand up, thank you, that you announce your name and your affiliation, and please speak slowly for the scribes. Sir. >>EVERTON LUCERO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Everton Lucero. I am the representative of Brazil to the GAC, and I'm vice-chairman of the GAC. This is not a question but, rather, a comment. Brazil and Argentina have been able to coordinate position on Internet governance in many multilateral fora. We have been doing joint statements at consultations in Geneva and at regional meetings, and as well as at the GAC. This time, bearing in mind the presence of the Secretary-General of the ITU, we thought it would be a good opportunity for us to present our views at this open forum. So I am honored to speak now on behalf of the governments of Argentina and Brazil. First of all, I would like to thank Dr. Toure for his initiative of coming here and congratulate him for his very inspiring words. Our governments continue to be committed to the ICANN process and its evolution towards a fully internationalized, independent, accountable, multistakeholder and transparent organization. Moreover, we are supportive of the establishment of a governance structure that facilitates the expansion and diffusion of the Internet as a means to support development and digital inclusion by empowering people in communities throughout the world, taking into account cultural diversity and multilingualism. We consider that the principles and procedures adopted at the World Summit on the Information Society must serve as the conduct of this process. In particular, division of creating a people-centered, development-oriented and inclusive Information Society. In this transition phase of ICANN, we believe that it is fundamental to achieve a carefully balanced participation of all stakeholders in ICANN decision-making processes: Governments, the civil society, the private sector, intergovernmental and international organizations should pledge to understand each other's roles and responsibilities according to the terms agreed at WSIS. The role of governments in defining public policy issues should be strengthened; in particular, in what refers to the observance by the board of any -- by the board of ICANN of any public policy advice provided by the GAC on public policy issues. GAC's efficiency and the legitimacy could be reinforced through the adoption of formal methods that have proved indispensable according to the experience of uncountable multilateral fora, notably in its formal communication with participating governments and the methodology for elaboration of official documents, for instance. The GAC would benefit from coordinating efforts with intergovernmental fora such as UNESCO and ITU, taking advantage of their informed advice and technical support which could provide excellent subsidies for GAC's debates. When it comes to the relationship between the GAC and other ICANN bodies, it should evolve so as to enable governments on equal footing to carry out their responsibilities in public policy-making on all subjects under ICANN's purview. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: Thank you for that. And I have another one down the back. Can't hear you yet. >>MARCUS FAURE: Hello? Now I am on. Hello, I am Marcus Faure. I am with CORE council of registrars, and like others today I would like to address the draft RFP. It has a few issues, which is not surprising considering the complexity of the document, but one thing that I would like to address specifically is the 75K annual fee. >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: Sorry, we are looking for questions in relation to Dr. Toure's address and I'm not sure the RFP -- >> I am sorry, I was under the impression that the public part of the open microphone had already started. >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: No. We are at taking questions to Dr. Toure at this part of the public forum. >> Then I will delay my question. Sorry. >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: We will come back to you. Is there a question for Dr. Toure there? Thank you, sir. >>ZAHID JAMIL: Thank you. My name is Zahid Jamil. I am from Pakistan. Your Excellency, I heard you talk about the important role that ITU can play in everything from IPv6, the coordination of the IP-based networks, cybersecurity, privacy, data protection, cybersecurity, cyberterrorism, multilingualism, IDNs, a whole bunch of things. My only question is, to what extent do you think ITU would have any restrictions, because it seems it would probably become the regulator in convergence of everything. So is there a limitation you can see as far as the ITU's scope? >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: The question maybe recorded there, if that's any help. It seems the suggestion the ITU runs the risk of becoming the regulator of everything. Do you have a response to that in and we will have another question there. >>WOLFGANG KLEINWACHTER: Yeah, my name is Wolfgang Kleinwachter. I am from the University of Aarhus. I am very thankful Mr. Toure referred us to the stormy days when the civil society for the first time was not in the streets but in the room and participated in the dialogue. I was involved also when ICANN started the discussion of involvement of at-large. It was already a couple of years earlier. So that means WSIS followed the ICANN model, and it's further developing. My question is what is the future of civil society in the ITU. Because while you have referred to the 189 member states and the 700 private sector members, my question is, you know, when the civil society becomes an equal partner in this setting? Thank you. >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: Thank you. Hamadoun, when you are ready, jump in with an answer to either of those questions. >>SECRETARY-GENERAL TOURe: I can answer from here? Thank you very much. I think the first speaker from Brazil talked about the GAC, and the -- I mean, it was more of a comment but I will have a comment on that. I think the greatest weakness of ICANN is the GAC. The GAC structure. I think the Governmental Advisory Committee is very weak and doesn't have a significant role, whether you recognize it or not. You can play the ostrich game and hide your head in the sand, but it's weak. And that's the perception. I'm telling you frankly, it is a perception. You may deny it. I had a long discussion with Ambassador Janis Karklins on that. Of course he denies it. I say he is not a fair speaker on this because he is a member of the board, so he cannot. I am trying to talk about the countries. The problem is that some people think that governments have no business in this business, and by putting the GAC, it's a cosmetic. To be frank, it's a cosmetic. Government is an advisory role. Advisory role. You advise me, I am free to take your advice. So we leave it there. You may not agree with it, but I'm telling you, it's a problem. It's the same problem with civil society in ITU. It's not well represented, because it wants to come simply as civil society. That's the only problem we have in the ITU, is that civil society has -- any civil society member can send an application through his administration, I want to be a Q sector member today. There are some that are members, including some that are nonpaying members that I have passed last year at my council, last year in September. A number of civil societies in Geneva that have applied for membership in ITU that we have approved, and they have given us the proof that they don't have any economic activity, financial revenues, so that could be free. Membership is free, so it's there. Now, if civil society wants to be a member of ITU without having anything to do with governments, that's a problem. There's a government structure that just enables you to have the government cosign your form, the application form that you are signing. And that's the thing. Now, during the WSIS process, we had a problem that some member states have genuinely raised. That was true. We have countries like China, during the PrepCom in Japan, those of you who were there remember that we spent three days out of four not working because there were some so-called civil society, NGO, so-called NGOs that were government officials from Taiwan. The Chinese delegation came with their photos and information on them from the Web that they are government officials, and they registered as NGOs. It's a problem. It is domestic internal issues that are brought here and that become the problem, and therefore, some countries will be reluctant to see anyone coming as a civil society just like that without any background check. If a civil society is dealing with telecommunications, is dealing with us, we have done projects together, why not accept them as sector member? The door is open. So that's the problem. So, really, I think it's been misquoted, and some governments, it's a genuine problem, which is national sovereignty issues, and no country will let its national sovereignty issues being left like that. On the question of the IPv6 and other things that I mentioned where we are asking what is the limitation. There is one clear limitation for ITU. We don't do operational matters. No. Not to keep to do operational issues within the ITU. We are trying to ensure that developing countries are understanding the issues, their standards are developed, they are interoperable to each other, and that's the way science and technology evolves. But having the operational part is not part of ITU at all. So that's the answer to your question. It's very clear on that sense. Thank you. >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: Thank you, Hamadoun. And one last question is all we have time for, I'm afraid, from Janis Karklins. Janis. [ Laughter ] >>JANIS KARKLINS: Thank you, Dr. Toure. It was very interesting to listen to you. You are on the record, and I believe that many members, member states who are listening to you now will bring what you said to the council in ITU. And I'm really, really glad that you said what you said during your speech. Indeed, I can confirm that yesterday we had a very lengthy conversation with Dr. Toure on issues he was referring to, especially on the weakness of the GAC. And in my view, there is a considerable difference between the ITU as an intergovernmental organization, this is a different model of organization, and ICANN, which is different model. This is a multistakeholder organization, where governments are participating on equal footing with other constituencies. We cannot compare two different models. And both models have advantages and disadvantages. And maybe from enter governmental perspective, the model where governments are advisors seems weak, because in enter governmental model, governments are running the show. In ICANN, it is different. And that's why I would be very careful saying that this is a problem. Both models have challenges. Intergovernmental organizations have many challenges to address. ICANN, in this model we also have many challenges. And we need to learn to live or act in different type of models and I think that this is the difference what we have, and of course we are defending the positions, and I'm very glad that we had this opportunity to exchange our views. Thank you, Mr. Toure. >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: Thank you, Janis. [ Applause ] >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: Hamadoun, would you like.... Hamadoun, would you like the right of reply? And then we will move on. >>SECRETARY-GENERAL TOURe: Thank you, Ambassador, for your comments. I come back to this issue because people like to say government has no business in this business. It's very nice words. It sounds very much like poetry. It's not true. Government has a role in everything we do. Now, let's be clear. Government cannot get into people -- individual people's privacy. And government has to ensure that the right to communicate is a fundamental right. I was first U.N. agency to react last year during the uprising in Myanmar to condemn the cutting of Internet -- of citizens from Internet. And my statement was very clear. I said this is a basic human right, the right to access information. And this is embedded in the preamble of the Tunis Agenda of World Summit on the Information Society. I was very heavily involved in that discussion, and there are four key words that are very important for all of us. We're talking about Information Society or, even better, the knowledge society, will never enter -- knowledge society. Without those four words. Access to information, everybody was talking about access to information, but we know it's not enough. Creation of information is equally important, and we have an opportunity for all citizens of the planet to create information. What a wonderful world it will be. So access to information, creation of information, and use of information. Because if you access information without using it, it's useless. And last but not least, sharing of information. Those four prerequisites should be there. And we at ITU want to be sure that that basic human right, fundamental human right is respected. That all citizens of this planet have that capability and, therefore, will really be into the knowledge society that we are dreaming of. Now, now, when this society is saying that it's inclusive, it should not exclude one group, even if it's our government, because they have responsibilities of protecting the citizens, and there are national sovereignty issues and national security issues you cannot discount. Now, they cannot come and take over this thing, just like I'm telling you my intention is not, from ITU, to try and take over Internet. But we have a contribution to make. We want to make that contribution side by side with all the players understanding and that our works are complementary. And if we do understand it, if we make good use of it, if we give each other the chance to work together, the first thing we should do is to trust each other at the beginning until we distrust each other, and to see how we can work together. And it's possible. And human beings have that advantage over other animals, that he has a brain. We have to communicate and share. We can disagree, but from friction comes light. But we can make things work if we do decide to work together. And I really see complementarity in our work. And I really do believe the world will be a better place if we do work together. Thank you. Applause. >>PETER DENGATE THRUSH: Hamadoun, thank you very much. That's all we have time for on this topic, but I just want to stop and mark the historic nature of the occasion and the indication from the audience of the interest in the topic and I think it's something we need to pursue. And I look forward to further dialogue like this and you will be very welcome back to carry on this discussion on other occasions and we look forward to other opportunities to debate these things with you. So ladies and gentlemen, please join with me in thanking sincerely Dr. Hamadoun Toure. [ Applause ]